Who is Sean Hershey?

Sean Hershey, LCSW | Gay Somatic Therapist NYC

Automatically Transcribed

Hi everybody, and welcome to Mind-Body Medicine for Chronic Pain. Here we are, season 1, episode 1. You are starting from the very beginning, and, um, I'm so glad you're with me. Uh, my name is Sean Hershey, LCSW, which stands for Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and this is my podcast. We are here to talk about healing from chronic pain, chronic symptoms, and chronic conditions using psychological and emotional modalities. And I just need to tell you, I've been saying, well, I've been saying in my head for like a year that I want to make a podcast. I want to make a podcast. And I've been saying out loud for several months, like, oh, I'm going to make a podcast. I'm going to make a podcast. And then I keep not making a podcast. Um, but look at me now. Hi, look what I'm doing now. I am finally starting my podcast and, um, I'm so glad that you're here and you're listening. And, um, I mean, my, my prayer and hope for this podcast is that it really, really helps you in your healing. Um, because yes, healing from chronic pain is possible. And I should know. So who am I? Uh, like I said, my name is Sean Hershey. I'm a chronic pain therapist. I've been a therapist for 10 years. Um, I, and, and I do this work myself. So I am very much a client and a therapist in the world of chronic pain work. Oh, and there's so much. I'm like, where do we start? Like, there's so, so, so, so, so, so much to talk about. But for today, the real purpose is I want you to start to think like, can you trust me? You know, I want you to start to get to know me and get to know my voice and get to know my style and my way of teaching and my way of helping people with chronic pain so that you can decide, like, is this good for me? Now, I want to encourage you. As you're listening. Yes, you. I want to encourage you to really tune into yourself as you're listening to me, because inside you, just like inside all of us, there is like truth. There is intuition. There is like a core animal self that most of us with chronic pain, and I am speaking from personal experience when I say this, most of us with chronic pain are very, very cut off from that. In fact, we, we, most of us have learned at some point in our life that the, the self, like the animal of ourselves, the intuition, the seed of knowledge, the center of ourselves is in some way dangerous or in some way threatening. And therefore we should tune out of that and just try to act like everybody else or just take our cues from the external environment because that is a whole lot safer than taking our cues from the internal environment because the internal environment is not acceptable. So that's the conditioning that, you know, we will get into, of course, like why that would lead to chronic pain if that doesn't make sense already. But I want— we're going to, you know, we're healing and let's try to let the real authentic animal of your body and yourself sit in the front seat with us today. And I want you— I want to encourage you to listen to my voice from that part of yourself and ask that part of yourself, how's this landing? Do you trust him? Is this for me? That's how I want to encourage you to go into, um, listening to this first episode. So I'm thinking there's going to be multiple different people who, uh, get to this podcast, some of whom, um, this will be your first exposure to Mind-Body Medicine for Chronic Pain, in which case I'm like, hey, welcome. That's awesome. I'm so glad you found this. And there's a whole world for you to explore and you can get better. Whatever condition you're dealing with, you can get better. So welcome, welcome, welcome. The second group of people that I'm imagining might be drawn to this podcast, which I think I sort of feel might be more common, is people who need to hear about chronic pain recovery through emotional and psychological modalities from more people in order to really believe it. You've read Dr. Sarno, you've read Nicole Sachs's new book that just came out. You have done journaling. You have, you know, you've read Alan Gordon's book, you've tried somatic tracking, you've listened to a lot of success stories, you've seen a lot of YouTube videos, and you need more. You need to hear from more people in order to believe, which is totally okay. I 1,000% get that, and I will be here as another voice saying like, yep, this stuff works. And then I guess the last bucket of people who I think might be drawn to this show is— I'm thinking about people who are This is like weird for me, but I'm like, maybe you need to hear it from me. You know, maybe there's something about my voice or something about who I am or my personality or something about like the way I describe things that'll just land with you in a way that hearing it from other people didn't hit you the same way, which I'm like, I mean, I will have you know, there are so many really wonderful teachers and practitioners in this space. So I find I'm like, It's impossible that anyone would ever need to hear anything from me because there's so much wisdom out there. But I'm like, you know what? Maybe, maybe, maybe you need to hear from me. So here we go. Let me read this. My promise to you as the listener is that I will share clear and correct information about healing chronic pain. From my personal experience and my professional knowledge so that you have the education you need. And even more importantly, to provide you with the company of someone else walking this path so you don't have to do it alone. There we go. That's the point of the podcast. That's what we are doing here. First, I'm sharing information so you have the education you need in order to heal. And second, I really want to challenge myself to share myself, like to share myself authentically, share my struggles authentically. Literally, this podcast, I rated it explicit because, you know, if you're healing from chronic pain, like we're going to have to be talking about bodies and body parts. We're going to be talking about trauma. We're going to be— I'm going to use curse words. We're going to be talking about sex. We're going to talk about sexual trauma. Like we're going to talk about some shit that is explicit. And even though here I am with like, you know, the soothing music and the— hopefully you find the whole vibe of the podcast soothing and healing. This is explicit. And I want to challenge myself to really be really real with you all about the things that I've gone through, the things that I see clients go through. So we can have a very authentic conversation because None of this needs to be shameful. And so, so, so much chronic pain comes from hiding. And so my challenge to myself is like, let's, let's not hide. And let's just like, yeah, we rated the podcast explicit and let's just do it. So I am here to, um, to really share myself with you so that, you know, you can relate to someone and you're not walking this path alone. Okay. So that's the basic point of the podcast today. I want to give you so much information. I'm like, where do I even start? Oh my Oh my God. But I am going to slow, slow, slow it down. And I'm just gonna— today's just gonna be about me introducing myself and telling you my story. And like I said, I really want to encourage you to listen from your heart, like listen from your body, from the animal that is you, and see what lands. Okay. So let's get into, uh, yeah, how, how I got into this. Excuse me. So I'm actually going to start at the end by saying my worst, my worst chronic pain symptoms. And I use the phrase TMS, which is tension myositis syndrome or tension myoneural syndrome. If you don't already know what that is, we'll get into that. That's going to be a follow-up episode is what is TMS? So don't worry about that right now. But my worst TMS symptoms were IBS and hip pain. And the IBS, I'm telling you, it is so chill now. And it was bad. Like, I'm going to get into this story and you will know, oh damn, it was bad. And true, I mean, psychological and emotional work is miraculous. It's truly a miracle that I can sit here. Truly, I hope you're absorbing that. It is truly a miracle. That I can sit here and be like, my IBS is so chill now. And it's really chronic IBS is in the rearview mirror. That is over. My other major symptom is hip pain. And the hip pain is like, oh dude, like, I mean, I have, I have many, many, many moments where it's gone. And then I have many, many moments where it's still there.. And I'm like, why, why, why? And then that will be followed by more moments where it's gone. So, um, it is no longer chronic. Doing this emotional and psychological work has helped so much with my hip pain, as well as obviously the IBS. And yet it's still there more so than I know it needs to be, certainly more so than I want it to be.. And so I'm on this journey. I'm on this journey with you. And I am, I'm still doing it. You know, I, like I said, I am both therapist and client in this work, so I'm still doing it. And I actually, I put a lot of pressure on myself to, well, I have a TMS personality, so I put a lot of pressure on myself all the time, but I specifically put a lot of pressure on myself to start this podcast now because The more that I do this work, the better my hip gets, obviously, because that's how this goes. And I really want to be a voice in this space who, um, who can say like, I am, I feel you. Like I am working through this. I'm still at the tail end of this. And so I get it. Like the pain sucks and it's so frustrating and it's so annoying. And even if, I mean, for me, it's like It's so rare that I have severe hip pain, but I still will have like moderate pain, definitely mild pain, at least a little bit every day. And I'm like, God, why? Why? And so I just want to say like, I, um, I get it. And I want to, I put the pressure on myself to start this podcast now because I don't, I know that a lot of practitioners in this space, they themselves are doing pretty well. And it can be a little like, obviously that's, you know, awesome. That's great. That's so inspiring. I've drawn so much inspiration from that. And yet it can be a little frustrating to be like, well, looks like this works really well for everyone, but it doesn't work for me. And everyone's better and they're somehow special. And they, they understand this in a way that I don't, and they, you know, it's not going to work for me. But I want to say this is working for me, and I know there's more work that it can do for me. And I just want to say, like, I, I want to level with you and be like, yeah, I, I think that kind of shit too. Sometimes I'm like, this is not going to work for me, I'm stuck where I am, I've gotten as good as I can get, and then I get a little better. So I just want to throw that out there as a word of hope. Okay. So we're starting at the end, which is where I'm doing well. I mean, I basically don't have chronic pain anymore, but I still have more pain than I want. And I'm still frustrated by that. And I am with you in your frustration. And I'm also with you in your hope, because dude, you would not be listening to this podcast if you weren't a little bit hopeful. So welcome, welcome to the frustrated, welcome to the hopeful, welcome to the parts of you that are hopeless and the parts of you that are hopeful. Let's get into it. So I grew up in St. Paul, Minnesota, and I was born in 1988. So you can do the math. How old is he? Am I older than him or younger than him? You— there you go. There's the information you need. Um, and I was raised in an Irish Catholic community, um, like, and I went to Catholic school from 1st grade to 12th grade, and I was a gay feminine child, um, and I mean, what my experience of my childhood was that like everyone was so normal and that there was something wrong with me. And it was a very mixed bag because like, I mean, my childhood was very traumatizing in that way. Like that is for sure. And yet there was a lot of love. There was a lot of love in my family. There's a lot of love in my school and in my community. And I, um, like I was very much, I was, I was woven into the fabric of my community. And yet, I was very out of step and awkward, and there was no easy place for me to fit in in such a normie, normie, normie sort of world. So I always felt out of step, always felt awkward, was always terrified of being bullied, ostracized, hated. And, um, I never really experienced, uh, like high-key bullying. And the reason why, I mean, at least I really believe looking back on it, the reason why is because I really learned how to do two things. First, people-please. Second, hide. So both of those things cause a lot, uh, what was the way you get to people pleasing and hiding is that you have to shove a lot down and keep a lot inside, not be yourself, and really learn that being yourself is threatening. So that was like one of the core tenets of my childhood. And for all of you who all like have a good understanding of how chronic pain works, you, you're already nodding your heads being like, yeah, I see it. I see where the chronic pain comes from. Okay. So, and then my family was, so I grew up as me, my mom, my dad, and my younger brother who's 2 years younger than me. Um, and my family was very loving and, um, very accepting, particularly my mom. Like, when my younger brother— he's gay too, and both we're very similar. Um, and when we were younger, like, I still— one of, one of my early memories is that because I was very into Disney princesses as a child, and Cinderella was like the it girl for me, and I still remember being in, um, preschool sitting around a table and saying to the teacher, I know how to spell Cinderella. I'm probably maybe 4 years old at this point. And I remember the teacher— I forget exactly how she said it, but I remember her being like, no, you don't. And I was like, yes, I do. And the teacher was basically like, okay, prove it. And so there I was. C-I-N-D-E-R-E-L-L-A. And I can still picture we were sitting at one of those like little kidney-shaped tables, like in a corner. And I can still picture her reaction. Like the, the face was like, oh wow, he can spell Cinderella. Damn. Like she was clearly a little shocked, um, at my precociousness. But, uh, that was the kind of kid that I was. I was into Cinderella, into Disney princess coloring books. And, um, and my mom never shamed me for that. And I'm really, really grateful for that. Like that, that was the vibe in my family was that, that I, like, my mom certainly was never shaming me for, for things like that. Now it's funny looking back on that story, I think probably just 2 years after that, 2 years later when I, you know, at that point I had started St. Mark's, which is a Catholic school, very different vibe from the like cute little preschool I had. And St. Mark's was a cute, wonderful place and was also, uh, scary and rigid. And, um, just a few years after that story where I was proudly, you know, shouting to the hilltops, I know how to spell Cinderella. It's sad and heartbreaking to know that just a couple years later, I would never have said that out loud, never, because that part of me was already getting buried under a whole lot of fear. But, but okay, back to my family. Um, my family was very, um, perfectionistic, and my family's, uh, my parents are both like rigid and pretty judgmental and very focused on, um, being good and being good people and their definition of good. And their definition of good, I would say, would be like, think about others first, think about yourself second. Be a good person, be kind to other people. Certainly don't be self-centered. Certainly don't be into money. Don't focus on yourself. Don't— uh, certainly vanity is not allowed. Anything that is like materialistic is not allowed. All of those things are bad. If you have urges like that or you think that things like that matter, they shouldn't. You should just be focused on, um, just being good, nice, and kind. Um, which is like, okay, um, you know, those, those are the values that they had. Excuse me. So, um, in that way, my parents were very focused on raising me, uh, in a way where they, um, wanted to shape me into being a quote-unquote good person by their standards. Much more, um, they were much more focused on shaping me versus allowing me to just be who I am, which was, was a mixed bag because in some ways, like, you know, in terms of sexuality, well, at that point it wouldn't even really be sexual sexuality would be just like gendered interests. Um, especially my mom was like, you know, she like allowed all of that and was like, you know, very like, whatever, I'm not trying to shape you into being more masculine. But when it came to who— also like grades, my parents weren't like super harsh on like, you need to, you know, you need to get all A's, you know. They weren't trying to shape my behavior in that way, um, because they would not have thought of those things as good. You know, it would be only bad parents really care that much about grades and force their kids into doing this, this, or that. Like, we are good. And so we're just gonna focus on shaping our child into being a good person. And so you see how subtle this stuff can be, like the way that I came out of that family of origin feeling like I can't be myself when my parents like really tried in so many ways to let me be myself. And yet, you know, this stuff can be really subtle and, and can have a major, a major impact. I mean, decades of chronic pain, honestly, is what this led to. And when you hear my fam— my family origin story and my childhood origin story, in many ways it sounds like lovely and idyllic and wonderful. And, you know, we were very privileged. And yet it was also traumatic. And how shitty is that? You know, it's like, How much effort does one have to put in to, like, stay away from, like, being forced not to be yourself and allowing other people to be themselves? Like, how hard is it to just allow your children to be themselves and allow yourself to be yourself? Turns out it's really fucking hard. So here we are. Um, But we're healing from this. We are healing from this. So, okay, childhood. And let's get into, um, so, okay, so when I was a kid, I had headaches, like always a headache. And this was, you know, at the time I'm in school, really repressing myself, really scared. Do people like me? Uh, am I gonna get bullied? Am I popular? Does anyone care? Do I matter to anyone? And You know, in an environment where like everyone's straight and normal and I'm like a closeted gay person, it's like, there's no way for me to be like the main character and be at the center of things and be like, uh, you know, like I was, I was a supporting role. I played a background supporting role in my school and I played a background supporting role in my own life. And that is not, I, I, I, that's not who I am. And I, I don't think that's who many people are. I mean, I don't know. I don't know who you are. You know who you are. So let, let you know, tune into yourself, tune into that self, that intuition inside you. You know who you are. But I know that like, that's not who I am. I'm not a scared background supporting character. That is, um, that's who I learned to be. And it's not authentic. While all that was going on emotionally, I was getting headaches all the time. Like, and I, I still remember thinking like, It's the car. We had this, like, I can still remember we had this Jeep and I can remember like what the Jeep smelled like in the rain. And if you went into the Jeep, I can still smell like the smell was like gross, just like kind of like nasty car smell where the doors have been closed for too long. And, um, God, I remember like, like that's what causes my headache. That's, oh, this car. Oh, the smell. Oh, my head. My head is always hurting. And, um, you know, I was always taking the child's Motrin. I can still remember what that tasted like. And as I got more into middle, middle school, I remember like, just like all the different like painkillers that I, that I took as a kid. Like, wow, that's kind of shocking to look back on. Um, but that sort of faded as symptom imperatives do and like the emotional landscape of life changes. And, um, as I was in high school, Uh, I was a theater kid in high school and in, in that way I learned how to be more myself. And, um, I definitely didn't really have headaches in high school, you know, things, things changed, things changed, but life goes on in college. So in college was when, uh, TMS really hit me. So I was 19 years old, sophomore year in college, and I went away to college, Beloit College in Beloit, Wisconsin. Great place. If anyone, if anyone knows Beloit, hello, B-E-L-O-I-T, that's how you spell it. Great, great place. Um, it was my sophomore year and I was just about, I mean, you know, I had been in Catholic school where like coming out as gay was, um, Brave for sure. And I was not brave enough to do that at that time. And here I am, just about ready to come out to everyone and really authentically be gay. And so there was this morning, uh, Spring Day at Beloit College they had every year, which was like, everybody gets a day off of class and like, you get to like do whatever the hell you want. And like the night before is a big like party night. So my friends were like out. And the next morning it's like you wake up on like a Tuesday or whatever it is, which is normally a school day and you have to go to class, but today it's Spring Day. So like, oh my God, there is no class. Anything goes. So I remember like my roommate was not, uh, was not around. It's like bright and sunny in the room and I'm like stretching and do it. Like I'm, I'm, that is like, that is my thing. Stretching, yoga. I've always been into that. And I'm just like doing my morning thing, feeling good. And then a bunch of my friends and I, I remember we walked. I don't remember where we went, but we walked really far to go get ice cream. And, you know, it's like warm and nice out. It's probably like April, I would guess, is when they would have Spring Day. And we walk back and it was this very long walk. And that night my hip starts hurting. And I remember thinking like, oh, and it's my is my left hip starts hurting. And I remember thinking like, oh, that's weird. Obviously this is from stretching in the morning or from walking, uh, all afternoon. And, um, this, this will get better. Go to sleep, wake up the next day, not better. Go to sleep, wake up the next day, not better. Go to sleep, wake up the next day, not better. This pain became my chronic pain symptom. And it has waxed and waned over the literal decades that I've had it. But I just want you to know the power of this shit. I am sitting here recording this podcast in 2025. My hip still hurts a little bit right now to this day. Isn't that fucking nuts? It's fucking nuts. I just like the power of this stuff. I cannot believe it. The power of emotions. In the body. It's real. And I'm telling you, it was not the walk or the stretching that caused this pain. That I know for sure. And I hope that's clear to you. I hope you, I hope you understand that too. This pain was definitely coming from like how freaked out I was by the fact that like, I am about to reveal a huge secret that has kept me really scared and really silent. And this secret has felt like such a huge threat, even though it was obviously not any kind of secret. Like, I was pretty clearly gay. Like, hello, welcome to my life. But I was so in denial, I was so afraid, I was so threatened, and the secret was about to come out. And so that was the beginning of, um, you know, that summer I remember going to like chiropractors, doing different kinds of yoga, really, really slowing down. Like, well, I, I can't do this, I can't do that, I, I shouldn't sit for too I shouldn't— what were all the— I mean, it's so many years ago. I was 19 years old. I don't even know what, you know, what all the things I wasn't supposed to do, but, but, but my life became a lot more limited because I had something wrong with my hip. So that was my life then. And the hip pain never, you know, like it kind of got a little better. And then I was just like, well, okay, it is what it is. And the next year I studied abroad, and I came out as gay. No one was surprised. Shocker. Um, and everything, you know, life, life moved on. And yet I still had the belief that there was something wrong with my hip, and I still felt like there was a threat there, like something wrong with my body. And so that sense of threat remained. And so The danger signal of the pain remained. So fast forward, but, but, but, but remained, remained subtly, you know, kind of waxing, waning, sometimes hurts, sometimes doesn't, and just like waxing, waning, whatever, fade into the background. But from then on, I thought of myself as having hip problems. And I literally thought they started from like one walk one day when I was 19 years old. Now that I know more about how the body works, I know that's like, let me just tell you right now, injuries heal. Let me say that again. Injuries heal. If you had an injury at age 19 and you're now like a big, big boy adult like me, like in your 30s or beyond, the pain isn't from the injury anymore. I just want to be very clear about that. We'll, we'll get into this as, as the podcast goes, but I just, just want to plant that seed because that's not how the body works. But okay, a lot of doctors and chiropractors made me believe that the, you know, my pain was because there was something wrong with my hip. So I believed that. Then I graduated from college, you know, moved to New York after I graduated and was like, you know, living my adult life for the first time, having a full-time job for the first time, paying actual rent for the first time. Having a full-time job and paying rent for the first time is incredibly stressful, as, um, many people probably know. That is— that was a lot. And, um, during that time I developed really bad irritable bowel syndrome. And this— oh man, like, this was the symptom that was really, really fucking bad. I still remember, like, the early days of my job. I worked in— I worked for AmeriCorps in a public school in the South Bronx. And I remember I had to— because in college I would, like, wake up late. It was like now. I mean, I'm a late riser, late to bed. Like, that's my natural self. To work at a school, I was like— we were getting up early, so I was getting up early, and my stomach every morning would just, like, feel off. Like, I, you know, that feeling where it's like, uh, like I haven't properly taken a shit yet this morning. I haven't properly like digested my food from last night. Like my stomach, like, ooh, this does not feel right. And, um, so that's how it started. And truly it was like those first few days I was like, oh, my stomach is unsettled because I woke up too early. And like didn't poop properly. And that was the beginning of honest— it was like, you know, it's like, it's like, okay, I woke up that morning and my stomach hurt. That was the beginning of my stomach hurting for like literally probably like 8 or 9 years. Isn't that nuts? Again, like the power, the power of these The way that emotions land in the body and are expressed through the body, it's powerful. It is powerful. And they, like, they can get stuck if you don't know what's going on. And I do just, you know, again, to jump to the end, spoiler alert, I'm sitting here today again at age 36. It is 2025 and my stomach feels fine. Totally fine. Like it's, it's literally just there. Like it, it feels fine. So there is hope, but okay. So, uh, through, you know, through my twenties, that was 22, I want to say. Yeah, that would have been 22 when that, when the IBS started. And then like, that really freaked me out because it didn't go away and it just got worse and worse and worse. And I was like, something's really wrong with me. Gurgling noises in my stomach all the time, like, um, bloating. Oh my God, the bloating, the pain, just so much discomfort. Like, I would just want to, like, I would just want to, like, curl up and get into bed and be like, everyone leave me alone. Do I want to go out and do this? No. Do I want to go out and do that? God, no. Do I want to have sex? Absolutely no. Especially do I want to have gay anal sex where I'm bottoming when I'm feeling so fucked up in my digestive tract? Absolutely not. And I just think about, like, people who don't have severe TMS all through their 20s. Like, man, they get to, like, explore so much and, like, live a life that is, like, full and rich and, like, you know, learning who you are and just, like, being young in the world. And, um, I just missed out on so much of that. And I, and I know that a lot of you listening relate to that because that's one of the hardest parts about TMS and chronic pain is that, oh, like you just have to, you know, when everybody else seems so healthy and so well and they can just use their bodies to like live their lives and you're stuck in bed feeling miserable and not able to Um, you're not able to enjoy yourself and not able to be yourself. Totally relate to that. And it sucks, right? Like, oh God, that's the worst. I like don't even have words to express it like that. Oh, it's just so bad. Miserable, truly miserable. Hell on earth. Okay. So as that's happening, it's like my stomach is getting more and more bloated, more and more big. I'm feeling awful about how I look. Like, awful. Like, I can still remember like catching my reflection in— I remember that like the building that I lived in in New York had like this big glass window in the front. So if you're— if you walked out the building and then walk down, the first thing you see is yourself reflected in the glass. I still remember one morning like that summer, my stomach, I was like, Oh God, like, really? Just like catching that glimpse in the reflection. I'm like, no, please God, do not tell me I look 5 months pregnant right now and I'm leaving the house. Oh God, I hate myself. I'm so humiliated. I hate that there's something so wrong with me. So then it's like doctors, doctors, doctors, cleanses, Supplements. Oh God, so many different probiotics, so many different, so many different theories. Like, oh, the problem is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. Uh, do all the treatments for that. That does nothing. Okay, okay, fine, fine. So then the problem is a gluten intolerance. There we go. Cut out gluten. Doesn't really work. Okay, fine. It's the dairy. No, no, doesn't work. Okay, fine. Maybe it's nightshades. Okay, cut out nightshades, which is like such a— like, what even is that? But I actually do know because I've been down that rabbit hole, so I could tell you exactly what a nightshade is. Um, and then you cut out nightshades and you're like, nope, it's not that. Uh, liver— a gallbladder, um, issue I thought I had at one point, and that, that was like one of my lowest lows. And I want to, I want to tell this story just so that You know, where I've been, um, I did this gallbladder cleanse because, you know, the theory was like, okay, there's something wrong with my gallbladder. That's why I have irritable bowel syndrome. And, um, what I need to do is cleanse my gallbladder. So this was like, you drink, uh, you do not eat for a full day. Just drink apple juice. So the whole day I'm drinking apple juice. And then that night you mix together 1 cup of lemon juice and 1 cup of olive oil, mix that all together, drink it down real quick. And then you lay down. I forget, I think it was on your right side, whatever it was. It like made sense given like whatever weird theory they were positing on this random part of the internet that I found this cleanse on, but I really believed it was going to work for me. Um, so then you drink this, lay down on your right side, I believe, and try to go to sleep. This was the most disgusting thing. And then the, the idea, which really did work, is that you then wake up the next day and shit out a bunch of gallstones. Now, I don't know what I shat out, but like, they looked like— they looked the way that the gallstones looked on the, um, on the disgusting online, like, you know, the images that they showed, like, whatever I pooped out certainly did look like that. Um, but did it help? No, as it usually doesn't. So what are you supposed to do? Do it again a month later, and you're supposed to do this 9 months. So I did this once a month for 9 months, and I was so desperate to feel better that I, I, I did it. And there I was sitting on the toilet every morning, shitting out. Like, I mean, this is, this is graphic, but we're here to talk about bodies. We're here to talk about pain. We're here to talk about the way life really is. So I'm not, I don't want to sugarcoat it for you. I'm shitting. And I know you've been here, like whatever your version of this rock bottom is, like you, you will relate to mine because, because you've been here, you understand. So 9 months in a row, sitting on the toilet, shitting out like mucusy material. I don't even know what to call it with these tiny little pebbles coming out. Disgusting. Totally disgusting. Uh, 2 different times it was so disgusting that I actually vomited, which is like, of course, I mean, you're drinking You don't eat all day and then you drink olive oil and— what was the other thing? Olive oil and lemon juice in mass quantities that night. One time I literally did it at my grandma's house. So me literally vomiting at my grandma's house while I'm quote unquote taking care of her as she was like sick. Oh yeah, that was a rock bottom moment. Definitely a rock bottom moment. And then time goes on. And I found this brain retraining thing that was called— it was a brain retraining program called DNRS. Maybe some people are familiar with that. It was, it was honestly, it was partially what I needed, but it was not the whole thing. And my friend introduced me to that. And this was, um, you know, I was just living with like really bad stomach pain and I would, I still went to work. Like I still just like did my life. I, I, I wasn't like on disability or I wasn't like out of like, I don't know. I still worked, I guess. Let me just put it that way. I still worked, but I was struggling every day, all the time, always in pain. Oh God. The symptoms were so bad and the farting. Jeez. Like always worried, like, am I going to fart? If I fart, is it going to smell? How bad is it going to smell? Oh God. Do I really have to, like, do I really have to do that here? Can I hold it in? And then my stomach's like gurgling and moving around. I'm like, can everyone see? Oh God. How, how embarrassing is this? Um, so all that is happening for just like literally years and there's no solution. I'm like, something's wrong with me and I don't know what it is. And then I found, uh, through my friend, this, uh, DNRS program, which was like brain retraining. The idea is like calm down your brain and nervous system so that you can calm down your physical symptoms. And of course, that is one of the pillars of TMS work. So it helped me. Did that solve the IBS? No, but did it help? Yes, it helped enough that the IBS just became sort of a moderate issue that I still felt every day, but it was like kind of in the background the same way that my hip pain was. Okay. So we're going to get into talking about the symptom imperative in a later podcast, but for those of you who understand the symptom imperative already, you will understand that, um, you know, so life was going on. I was, I was okay, you know, just sort of like mild to moderate pain in my stomach every day. And always the mild pain in my hip every day. And by this time, you know, all, all through all these terrible symptoms, I had gone to social work school. I moved back to St. Paul, went to the University of Minnesota, was there for 2 years, got my master's degree in social work, became a therapist, moved back to New York again. Again, you know, treatments, treatments, modalities, different doctors. But at, but at the same time, I'm, um, you know, really gaining my, um, gaining my sea legs, as you might say, professionally, and learning how to be a therapist. And, um, you know, so like life went on despite the fact that I was like so sick. Um, so all right, I do the DNRS program and my symptoms get a little— get like noticeably better, noticeably better. Then the pandemic hits in 2020. So at this point I'm living with my ex-boyfriend the two of us had still such a great apartment. I still miss that apartment. We lived in this great apartment. And at the time, work went remote. So suddenly I'm seeing all my clients virtually, which was totally new. I had never done that before. And I had so much time and I felt— I see. Okay, I'm going to share this. I was the kind of freak who, when the pandemic hit, I was like, Oh, thank God. Thank God. Cause I needed a break so badly. Like life was stressful. Work was stressful. I just felt like I was like forced to go at like 100 miles per hour every day. And I was like, thank God. I just get to stay home and chill and do my work from home. And thank God. Now, um, at that Same time, I was obviously very scared also, you know, I was working for a hospital. I, they were, I mean, I was scared. People were dying. Like it was horrifying. It was obviously horrifying. So I was very scared and very relieved all at the same time. Lots of emotions and something that's important to note, lots of space for emotions that had been kept at bay by my busy, busy, busy schedule. Lots of space for those emotions to start rising, lots of space for me to think and reflect and be more in touch with myself and who I really am and what I really want. And surprise, surprise, when that happened, when the pandemic hit and I was, you know, at home, the hip pain, which had been subtle and in the background, it had always been there, but had been subtle and had been in the background, Suddenly the hip pain becomes excruciating, so bad. Like every day, like it's just so bad. And I remember, cause I like what I often will do at what I would do at the time. I would go to the gym. This was before the pandemic hit, cause gyms closed. I would go to the gym and just hang off of a bar just to be like, oh, I feel like, you know, my hip that there's clearly something wrong with is finally getting stretched out. And it can just like pop and crack into the right place. And this will help me feel better. And during the pandemic, there was no gym to go to, no bar to hang from in my apartment. Like, that wasn't really a thing. And I remember trying to hang from so many different surfaces, like putting my hands up on my dresser and lifting myself up just to try to feel like— I just want to feel no pressure on my hip. I just wanted to crack. I just wanted to like slip into place because clearly it's out of place. You know, I was thinking so structurally, I was so, so invested in the reality that something was structurally wrong with my body. And I was like, if I could just lift myself up and get my hip to crack into place, like this will just go away, right? Like it must be from sitting. It must be from, uh, uh, headphones being attached to my laptop as I'm doing my virtual sessions. It must be from something physical that's going on. And, um, none of that helped. None of that helped. And so that was just really bad for like a year or two. And all— and then, you know, then it's like, oh, you know, life's kind of is getting sort of back to normal. The gym opens again, and all— you know, I, I like to work out. All of these things that I used to do suddenly were like not accessible to me. Like Um, I don't know what you call this, but like whatever, kind of like, I don't even know what to call it. Um, but like the exercises that like involve the back, I was like, oh God, like I physically can't do that. And like, I've been doing yoga for years and I've become like very, very flexible and all these different things that I used to be able to do. I'm like, I can't do that anymore. Like, oh God, like my body is like shutting down on me. Like, My hip is really fucked up. And then through all of that, I, um, this was such nice, such beautiful happenstance. I was talking to, so, so, you know, again, while all these symptoms are going on, it's like, I'm, I, you know, I'm still like, um, I'm still working. Like I'm, I'm, I'm still a therapist. All that is still happening. And, um, by this point I had started a private practice. I was seeing my own clients, um, you know, just, just me, no longer working for anyone else. And I was consulting with a therapist friend once a week. So, you know, we would spend an hour a week together. She would talk about, you know, clients that she was, uh, stuck with for half an hour and I would advise her. Uh, I would talk about clients that I was stuck with for half an hour and she would advise me. And there was one client who I— it was just such lovely serendipity. A client who I had who had asked me like for, um, journal prompts because she, you know, she was like, I, um, I, I want to like write. And, um, I was like, journaling, like I, I don't— journal prompts, like I, I don't know. Uh, so I, I went to, to my consultant. I was just like, will you just give me some journal prompts to give to this client? And, um, she was like, oh yeah, for sure. Um, you should actually look into the work of Nicole Sachs because I went to her. She did this whole retreat about chronic pain. I went to the retreat and she has great information about journaling. And I was like, oh, okay, sure. I'll, I'll look at the website. And my consultant, my friend, she was like, uh, does the client have chronic pain? And I was like, yeah, how did you know that? And she was like, well, does she have like a trauma history? And I was like, yeah, well, no, no, no. I had actually already said that she had a, she had a trauma history. And so my friend was like, well, that's really common for people with a trauma history to have chronic pain. And I was like, well, shit. Like I felt so exposed in that moment because I was like, I have chronic pain, but I don't think it's my emotions. I don't have trauma. My problem is just that something's wrong with my body, right? So I was just at the precipice of finding out an entirely, entirely new way to relate to my body and to listen to my body. And so that night I went on, um, I went to Nicole Sachs's website. And at that time, like the banner headline of her website was, the pain is not in your head, but the solution is not in your body. I'm going to say that one more time because that, that hits. The pain is not in your head, but the solution is not in your body. I read that and I was like, okay, okay, let me get some journaling prompts for my client. All right, done, done. But wow, I think this is for me. And so I started poking around the website and saw that there were all these stories of people who had cured their chronic pain, people who were not limited, debilitated, miserable anymore, and they had been. I was like, wait, is this possible? Oh my God, is this possible? And that night I was walking to the gym and, you know, my hip hurt every day, all the time at that time. And as I was walking that night, I was like, wait, no shit. Like, this is not happening. My hip, it feels looser. Like it, like it physically very clearly felt looser than usual. And I was like, oh my God, there's something to this. Wow, there is something to this. So then that launched a whole new worldview. This was October of 2022, and I still remember that because it began— it was October 3rd of 2022. I believe that's accurate, October 3rd. Um, and that— I remember that because it launched it. I mean, that was such a turning point. Like, it changed everything for me. And then from there, I learned, you know, XYZ, which I will, I will be talking about in this podcast. We're not going to get into all of that, um, today, but we— I'll just basically summarize what I learned was Number 1, there's nothing wrong with my body. I don't have to be afraid of my body. I don't have to be afraid of the pain because pain does not mean there's something physically wrong with your body at the site of the pain. Sometimes it means that, you know, say you got stabbed in your side and your side hurts. Yeah. That's because there's something physically wrong with your body at the site of the pain. Pain is always a danger signal. Always, always, always. And what pain from a knife wound would be telling you is like, there's a danger from your knife wound. Not all pain works like that. All pain is a danger signal, but sometimes the danger is emotional. Sometimes the danger is psychological. And when it comes to chronic pain, that's always— I mean, I think basically always, like, it's pretty much always what— like, that's the brain conditioning that is emotional, that is psychological. So the first thing I learned was there's nothing wrong with my body. That's shocking. I read Dr. John Sarno's books and realized, wow, there's really— maybe there's nothing wrong with my body. Wow. So that was the first thing that was huge. The second thing is that I learned to explore my emotions in a different way. Uh, I really, you know, I learned, um, that I had a lot of repressed feelings, which I did not know. And I want to make this clear, like, I was a therapist. I spent a lot of time like sort of wallowing in my own emotions and thinking about my own emotions, ruminating over my own emotions, and like dealing with other people's emotions. And yet, did I have a whole, whole lot of repressed stuff that I had not thought about and had not fully acknowledged. And still to this day, honestly, there's stuff that I'm like, oh, I don't like dealing with that. Yeah, I have a lot of that. And at first my defensiveness was like, well, the repressed emotional thing probably doesn't apply to me. And I just want to encourage any of you, if you're in that same mindset, oh, put that down. Like, put that down. Open yourself up. And just be like open to the idea that maybe you do have repressed emotions. Because I'm going to say pretty confidently, if you have chronic pain, you do have repressed emotions. I wouldn't even say like be open to it. I would say like it is real. But if you're in the place where being open to it is the next best step, then, then be open to it. So first I learned it's not from my body. Second, I learned that, uh, I have a lot of emotional material I have not processed and dealt with yet, and I have to be brave enough to process and deal with it. And then third, the third thing I learned— so it's 1, 2, and 3— the third thing I learned is that like, I have been so, so out of tune with myself. So, so unattuned. Like, I have— I learned at an early age, both in my family and in, you know, at St. Mark's School in St. Paul, Minnesota, I learned you can't trust yourself. The little boy who knows how to spell Cinderella is the little boy who's going to get bullied and everyone's going to hate him. Therefore, that little boy can't be you. You can't be yourself because who you are is scary. And so I learned to put myself away and not be myself. And I am still, oh God, still. I mean, I've been doing this 2 and a half years now. Um, and I'm still just trying to get back to being in tune with my real self. Like, my God, that is hard to real— this is why I'm encouraging you from the very beginning of this podcast. I'm encouraging you, listen to yourself. How do you feel when you hear my story? Because if you relate, awesome, please keep listening. And this— and hopefully I can be a good, um, resource for you, and I can be part of your learning, and I can be part of your healing if you really connect. Allow yourself to connect. If you don't connect, that's okay, you know. Not everyone is for everyone, and that is fine. If this— if we're not a psychic match, allow that to be, you know. Please don't run down a whole rabbit hole of like Oh, I tried, I tried Shawn Hershey, you know, like I tried that and I really tried to make it work and I, I never got it and I never liked it, but like he says that he healed from chronic pain and he helps other people to heal from chronic pain. So like, so I had to try it. If you don't like it, don't try it. But I do want to, okay. Two things I want to leave you with before we're done. We're getting, we're getting near the end. Two things I want to leave you with. With first. I do want to be clear with the idea that, um, how do I put this? Yes, try different things, work for different people. So, so try different things and see what resonates. Yes. But I really want to encourage you to look under the correct umbrella because when it comes to chronic pain and chronic symptoms, I just want to tell you the things under the old school Western medical model, they don't work for chronic pain. I have tried them. My clients have tried them. Other people who, you know, Dr. Sarno has been doing this work. I mean, I think he published his first books in the '90s, maybe the '80s, and he had been doing this work several, for years, years and years before that he had been doing this work. So many people have tried these methods. I mean, listen to Nicole Sachs's podcast. She has so many wonderful, like miraculous success stories. It's called The Cure for Chronic Pain. If you're not familiar, and so many miraculous success stories and she, um, the amount of modalities that people have tried and it just doesn't work for chronic pain. So I do want to say like, yes, different things work for different people, but please know what umbrella to look under. And for you and me, we are people with chronic pain. I'm speaking from me to you directly. Look under the umbrella of emotional and psychological healing. That's where you should be doing your work. Trying to structurally alter your body is not going to change your chronic pain. Wouldn't it be great if it did? I just want to rewind to my hip story where I'm like, oh, couldn't— like, couldn't I just— what if I could just crack it and just like, then it would just slide into place? I still sometimes, when my hip is hurting bad, I still will have those moments of like, ah, what if I could just crack it into place? Wouldn't that be awesome? It would. It really would. But you can't. I want to be the one to give you that like sad but empowering news. You can't. So stop trying. And really, I want to encourage you to look under the umbrella of the emotional and psychological, because that is where the good work is done. And that's where people heal from chronic pain. So, okay. That's the first thing. And then the second thing that I want to leave you with is, um, I am so much better. Truly, I'm so much better. My hip pain, like I said, you know, many days it's very chill or I don't have it at all, and that feels like a miracle. I no longer worry about like, can I do this, can I do that, should I do this, should I do that? Well, my bad hip, you know, my bad hip, I just do it. And I mean, I mean, we'll get into, I mean, there's like, my life has just become so much more full. I am so much more physically capable. And let me tell you, oh, oh, and stomach, my God, like the stomach has become so chill. Like, you know, we'll get into more about that too, but like, this really helps. It really helps. And I also do want to say that like, I mean, my stomach, you know, I will get stomach pain every now and then that really does annoy me. And I know it's emotional and I hate that. And I'm like, wow, yeah, like life sucks. And feeling emotion sucks and not feeling emotion sucks and feeling them in your body instead sucks. Like, all that sucks. Life is hard. And life can be hard without your body hurting. And I also want to say that, like, it's, you know, like I said at the beginning, I don't want to position myself as like And now I'm fully over it. And everything's perfect because I'm not. And I want to be here with you in like this. I mean, really, like I said, right now I'm sitting here and there, there's like a, like a tension, like a little feeling in my hip. And I know it's probably because I'm starting this podcast. And there's a lot of, you know, there's stress that goes into sitting here and talking into this little microphone and letting my story out into the world and knowing this is going to get published and you're going to listen to it. And what are you going to think? And are you going to judge me? And will this help you? You know, is the guidance I'm providing and the connection I'm providing going to be helpful? And I just have to, um, right now just say to myself like, yes, it is, just so I can move on and do this. But later, if I need to freak out, like Will I help anyone? Will anyone care? Will this be totally meaningless? Okay. I can entertain those fears and I'm not scared to. I don't have to just tell myself, oh, everything's fine. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. If everything doesn't feel fine, because now I'm in the position where I'm like, sometimes things are not fine and I hate that, but I can tolerate it. And I hope the same for you. So, okay, that is my story. All of the, you know, from the misery, shitting on the fucking, you know, shitting mucus out in my grandma's house. And, um, so from there to success, living a good life. Okay. And in the future, we are going to get into what is TMS and then the different parts of healing, uh, healing psychologically, Healing emotionally and healing by patiently attuning to your true self. And then we're going to get into a lot of other fun topics, so I hope you stick around because really this information is what you need in order to heal. Okay, it's been awesome talking to you, and I will, um, plan to see you next week. All right. Bye!